Amelia: Hello and welcome back to CareerCon and to this conversation from play to professional, the esports journey. My name is Amelia Loveday and I'm head of partnerships at Hundo and I'm delighted to be joined today by Nick Turner. By way of a very quick introduction, Nick is a consultant and lecturer in esports, specialising in the development of esports and education for a sustainable future.

Amelia: for the next generations. He is Managing Director of NT Esports, working with Guild Esports and the Esports Trade Association, among others. Nick is also Chief Education Advisor for Esports Scotland and lectures at Queen Mary's College, Basingstoke. So, welcome Nick, um, and I'm hoping you will start by telling us a little more about yourself and in particular your journey into the Esports industry.

Nik: Okay. Thanks, Amelia. Um, it's quite an introduction. Um, so my career started out as a broadcast journalist. Uh, I worked in radio, had my first business when I was 24, uh, where we broadcast news and sports stations around the UK. Um, that led me into kind of creating training programs for my journalists, which led me into education.

Nik: Um, I. Was head of department at a, uh, an offset outstanding college for 10 years. And in that time, I started out as head of media. I then took on music, performing arts, um, and I saw the opportunity. to take on the IT department as well. And by taking on IT, what that meant was having media and IT meant that I could introduce games into the curriculum, games development.

Nik: So I introduced, um, probably about 13, 13 years ago, maybe, introduced games into the curriculum, which was really popular. And we kind of developed, um, you know, a whole new, it was almost like a mini department. We had about 200 students within sort of, like, three years. That was my first kind of real introduction into, into the gaming world, if you like.

Nik: And then during my time as, as head of department, we had a local esports organization came into the college to talk to us, and we had, um, some really interesting conversations about what was happening, and they had a high profile streamer working for them. Um, and we were discussing education. Um, and at that point, I was invited on to the advisory board, um, to develop education and, and we talked about things and develop things and came up with ideas for a few years before I stepped out of education and then went Um, and, and worked at the organ at the e sports company.

Nik: Um, and then my role there was basically to set up their education, uh, center, which is what I did. And, and, you know, that, that proved really successful. And we, we, I wrote lots of different courses and got them accredited. Um, and then, uh, I was then visited by, um, James at Queen Mary's college, who was building an e sports arena.

Nik: And we were talking and he was kind of asking me about. About the build and some of the other bits and bobs. And then he found out that I was forming in education as, as, as a head of department. Um, and at that point we kind of clicked and I said, if you get that arena built, then I need to come and work there.

Nik: Um, and then the arena was built, so I went to Queen Mary's College. Um, and then since that time I've been a course leader, lead iv, uh, and lecturer. Um, for the last few years now, um, and, you know, it's been a real kind of whirlwind, um, in that when the BTEC was released, or when the BTEC was launched, I was fortunate in that I was in a position that I'd been working in eSports for, or involved in eSports for about four or five years, um, plus I was a qualified teacher with kind of, you know, experience in education, um, and at that point, that was where My consultancy and my company really started mainly because, um, people were launching the BTEC and looking for advice and, you know, and it got quite hectic.

Nik: Um, so, so that was the, that was the formation of the company. And then since then, I've been working with lots of different organizations, uh, just to really help them kind of. understand eSports, um, and how that equates to education and, you know, good practice for teaching. Um, you know, I've also got, um, a large shop on my website, which has got teaching resources, you know, which has proved popular because, you know, a lot of teachers are new to eSports and they're learning from that as well.

Nik: Um, you know, and it's been, I would say over the last eight years that I've been in eSports, it's been a real kind of progression. A real journey. Um, but the most important thing is watching the journey of the students and seeing how they have responded and reacted. Um, and it's. It's, it's unique, you know, eSports is a unique educational subject, um, and it's, it's really exciting to be part of it and, um, you know, it's something that I'm really passionate about.

Amelia: And so, for those of us who might be new to the idea of gaming and eSports in education, um, going back to the basics, uh, what, what are the transferable skills? that students would pick up through their involvement in esports and, and how do those translate into, into other professions? 

Nik: Yeah, so that's a good question, Amelia.

Nik: And, um, there's kind of two pillars, if you like, that you can look at. The first one is the competitive side of esports, which is, is, sits really nicely alongside the educational side. So when the students are, um, at college, they get to compete in the, uh, British esports student championships. And what that does is it...

Nik: It's really inclusive, and it puts everybody on the same level. So you might have students who are more academic than others, but ultimately, when they're trying out to get into the teams to compete, it's about how good they are at the game. Um, so we have students who might be a level two student, um, or an SEN student who are really good at the games, and they are competing, uh, at the highest.

Nik: Uh, student level within those teams and what that brings is things like, you know, communication skills they have to when they're playing and if they're in a team of five, um, you know, they have to work out a comms strategy, so they all understand each other, but the nature of competitive gaming and the speed and the reaction times and all those things means that that comms strategy has to be really effective, you know, if you want to want to be successful, um, so, Thank you.

Nik: A lot of students who may struggle at times with social interaction and social communication. It's an opportunity for them to communicate on a different level and one that they're really engaged in. So communication is one teamwork is another one. Um, you know, if you're in a team of five, you can't just go and do your own thing.

Nik: Your teammates will not appreciate it and you won't be successful. So you have, um, you know, that element of. Your communication is both talking and listening and then working within that team to for the best outcome and because it's so fast paced, you have to be really quick, you know, make those decisions and listen to the listen to your team.

Nik: So, you know, quick thinking is another. You've also got strategy, you know, the same as any other sport, traditional sport. Um, there are ways to play games and games have different maps and, uh, you play those maps differently. Each player plays an individual role within the team. Um, so in order for that to be successful.

Nik: You know, that has to come together. So kind of like appreciating the teamwork side of it, um, is, is, is really important and, and again, a great skill. And one of the other ones that I think is probably most notable, noticeable, and one that I've really enjoyed seeing at QMC is I've had two years ago, we won our Overwatch team, one of the.

Nik: the first division, which is kind of like the pinnacle student champs esports, which we were obviously delighted with. Um, and within that we had two, in the team of six, we had two girls, um, and we had two players who were really quiet. So I taught them for a year, you know, and didn't really, Offer stuff in class discussions and, you know, kinda sat there really quietly.

Nik: Um, and they went to the land finals in, uh, in Nottingham. And I think that the, the first bit that was really interesting was when they walked out on stage, there was a whole lot, they've got two girls in their team. And which was like, yep, we have, and you wait until you see them play. Because they were like two of our best players.

Nik: One of those girls got, um, MVP for the final most valuable player. Um, and then we won the tournament. And then when, when the students returned, when they came back in September, because it was kind of right at the end of term, they walked into college like heroes. Everybody was like, you know, clapping them and cheering them.

Nik: Um, and the confidence that that gave them to suddenly realize that they had value, that they were valued by their peers. They were appreciated by their peers. Um, it was just, you know, almost quite emotional to see because it was like they were changed people. Um, you know, from that, one of them Um, went on and spoke at the keynote on the keynote stage at the bet global in March, which is something that was just unimaginable the year before, but it had given us that much confidence.

Nik: Um, you know, and that was amazing to sit in the crowd and watch and watch her do that. Um, so, so that's kind of like just the playing side of it. And then within the education side, the way that the B tech is designed, um, you know, it's been really cleverly designed by Pearson and. British eSports in that, yes, it's an eSports course.

Nik: Yes, it's focused on the eSports industry, but very few of the units are solely related to eSports. Most of them are transferable skills to be learned and taken into other industries. So, for example, the first unit is introduction to eSports, which is kind of. You know, the industry, the teams, the leagues, the tournaments, the organizations, et cetera.

Nik: The second unit is one that is quite specific, um, which is about skill strategies and analysis. Um, but that's very closely linked to performance coaching and performance analysis like you would have in traditional sports. The third mandatory unit is enterprise and entrepreneurship, which is a really good business.

Nik: It's tricky, but it's a really good business, uh, unit, whereby the learners have to, they look at different sorts of enterprises, they look at legal formats, um, you know, they understand about limited companies and PLCs and different types of enterprises within eSports, but then they have to come up with their own idea, um, for an eSports enterprise.

Nik: They will then undertake market research for it and then they will, uh, produce a business plan. So, you know, a proper business plan, you know, executive summary and everything that you would expect to see in a business plan. They then have to pitch that and then they evaluate it. Um, the fourth mandatory unit is, uh, health, well being and fitness, which is very closely linked to sports.

Nik: Um, and then you've got other units like Social media as a, as a business, which you can apply anywhere. You've got, there's a branding module, you know, branding is branding. It's just done within the context of e sports live events. So, you know, which is very much an event management, uh, module. And then you've got other things kind of like, like streaming and shoutcasting, um, and other things that are quite bespoke to e sports immersive content, some colleges will run the.

Nik: Computer networking. So there's a whole range within that qualification that will give you the skills to qualify within the context of eSports, but you can just take those skills into so many other industries, you know, which makes it a very valuable, a very valuable course. 

Amelia: Yeah, that's amazing. I mean, it really, it's not all just gaming.

Amelia: I think sometimes people think, oh, it's just sitting at computers and gaming, but as you've outlined, it's found so many skills, so many specialisms that can go into so many industries. I actually, I, 

Nik: yeah, go on. I was going to say, just to pick up on that point about it's not a gaming industry, that's obviously, it's not a gaming course.

Nik: We don't teach them to be pro players, that's all enrichment, that's all extracurricular. And when parents come in on open evenings, they're like, Oh, you know, do I really want my son or daughter to be sat there gaming all day? And the example that I use is, firstly, this is definitely not a gaming course.

Nik: You will not be gaming all the time. You will not be taught how to be better at those sports. And I always use the example in the first six weeks of the half term, the first half term from September. It's very rare that the students will even go into the gaming arena. You know, they might do, it can be a good carrot stick, uh, for assignments.

Nik: Um, you know, or you might have a lesson within there, but, but they don't just go in and start gaming. But we do run enrichment during lunchtime so that the students can, can go in game, but they do that in their own time, you know, as an enrichment. So yeah, a hundred percent, it's definitely not a gaming course.

Nik: It's, it's about esports and all of the career pathways that the skills that you need to. To get into those jobs. Of course. 

Amelia: Um, I saw your student actually speak at the back conference this year. Um, and it would, she, her confidence was astounding. Like I was sat with my colleague and we were both going, oh my God, I wish I could speak like that to of this 

Nik: many I did.

Nik: I I did a tear, I did have a tear in, in my eye at that point. I have to, I'm not gonna lie. It was, it was a very proud moment. 

Amelia: Yeah, she was incredible. Um, so you use words like arena, um, and I'm sort of just trying to picture that. Um, and can you, can you talk to us about the, you know, the setup of gaming environments, esports arenas, and the potential there to actually attract students back into education or encourage them to come out of their shell in the way that you've 

Nik: described?

Nik: Yeah, that's, that's, that's another really good point. You know, we are very fortunate at QMC in that we, um, we receive funding to build the first eSports facility, bespoke eSports facility for, for FE College in the country. So we have, uh, within that building, we have two gaming arenas. And when we talk about an arena, um, if you can imagine just rows of gaming...

Nik: PCs, um, you know, all kind of like with little partition bits, um, neon lights, uh, lovely looking yo yo tech computers, you know, that are all jazzy and lit up. Um, and then if you imagine rows of kind of like 10 students all sat playing, talking through the mics, but four rows of that, um, that's what we mean by the arena.

Nik: And the arena is... The most impressive building at college, probably slightly biased, um, we have two of those and when we have open evenings and we have visitors and guests, um, they're blown away with that and the parents will say, Oh, I wish I was had this when I went to college. And, and that's great for the students for so many different reasons.

Nik: So let's, if we talk firstly about engagement. So students are just engaged in what they're doing all of the time with eSports because it's a passion of theirs, you know, nowadays, as we already know, so many people game across the world, you know, one of the biggest industries in the world, um, and all of a sudden they can be at college in that environment with peers.

Nik: So the engagement is really high, which then equates to high attendance. Um, you know, we've had students who have traveled, like, we do have students that travel over an hour and a half. to specifically come to our college to do the course and, you know, they get dropped off at the train station at six o'clock by parents and then they get a train and then they get a bus and then they walk and then they're in college by, uh, you know, 8 30 ready to start lessons at nine. 

Nik: Um, we've also seen quite a number of students who, uh, uh, or youngsters who were previously neat, you know, not in education or disengaged from education and, you know, not attending school and, um, or people that have always been homeschooled that suddenly find that the passion for education is reignited by the prospect of studying esports in that environment.

Nik: Um, you know, which is great to see those come back out and then, and they, they're often really successful because. It's almost like they've been waiting for that and school didn't necessarily work for them because they for whatever reasons, you know, we could sit here for hours, but they suddenly feel that passion again and they get engaged.

Nik: So that's really good. And it's also an amazing marketing tool. So if you've got your arenas. When people come in and because they're so impressed you student numbers are, um, you know, very positive. It's probably the most oversubscribed course at the college. We have waiting lists. Um, people sign up early.

Nik: And we went from year 1 when it was very first launched. Before the arena had been finished, I think we had 23 students. Um, you know, now we've got over 150 students. So, just in terms of funding for those students, you know, it's been a really good revenue stream for the school. Um, It enables you to get into the community.

Nik: So we offer community events, you know, we have a special educational needs school that come in and use that facility for, you know, we don't charge them for that, obviously. So, so it enables you to engage with the community. We also use it for. Um, kind of like mini conferences and talks and, you know, we'll have a talk educating parents into the values of the value of eSports.

Nik: Um, it's, we also have it as a revenue stream, uh, an additional revenue stream. So at the weekends, we will rent the arena out for birthday parties. And we have specific software that enables us to do that in a controlled manner. So for example, if you've, if it's a 10 year olds party, you can't have them paying, playing call of duty, but it's fine because we can just program and you've got access to these games.

Nik: So you can play those games, but the games that you're not allowed to play because their age, uh, rated, you know, they can't have access to, and then in the, um, holidays. We rent it out quite regularly for boot camps for esports organizations who will generally coach online, play online, don't very often get the chance to be together.

Nik: So they'll book both of the arenas for two weeks and all of their rosters, all of their players, their teams will come in for that week so that they can work together, you know, and meet each other formally. And so there's lots of different benefits to it. And we've learned, we learned at QMC. Many lessons along the way, some funny, some not so funny, um, like bringing the whole college down, uh, all the systems down on the first day of tournaments was, was an interesting one.

Nik: Um, but again, so through learning through those things, we now use software, which enables us to. as teachers manage the environment. So, IT are very rarely in the arenas because we can do it all through the software that we use, um, which obviously saves money for IT. Um, so, you know, this, there's so many different reasons as to why you should, if you can, um, have an arena and, and, and lots of local organizations, local tech companies will want to get involved and want to be sponsored, uh, or will want to be part of it.

Nik: So. You know, it's quite likely quite viable that you can approach these tech companies and get some free kit, cheap kit, um, you know, because they want to be part of e sports and it's a, it's an entry route into them as opposed to the thousands and thousands, tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of pounds, if you want it to get in at a professional level.

Nik: So, you know, yeah, the, the, the, the arenas are, um, kind of look after themselves. 

Amelia: Yeah, and I suppose those, those connections with, with industry, with tech companies or whoever it is, are so important for schools, um, who sort of often struggle to build that connection between, between education and employment.

Amelia: Um, so you've talked to us a bit about the BTEC, uh, what that entails, um, and I'm wondering if you can, um, give some examples of, uh, mentorship. programs or perhaps sponsorship opportunities that exist alongside that or perhaps beyond that, that really support young people into a career 

Nik: in eSports. Yeah, and again, I think the nature of eSports and the nature of the students studying eSports enables that to happen in almost an, um, an organic way.

Nik: So, as a college, we, we, we, we strike up lots of different partnerships with different people for different reasons. So, um, you know, Fanatic, who are essentially the Barcelona of eSports, um, a team based headquarter in, uh, headquarters in London, you know, we were part of setting up the, uh, college partner program with those guys, which involved about five or six colleges.

Nik: And we could then take Our students up to their headquarters that they could see what it what it what it's like, you know, it's the same as going to all taking football students to Old Trafford, you know, or the Etihad, you know, and seeing it in real life. And then they would offer webinars and you would hear.

Nik: People that the students have watched on stream, pro players, coaches, et cetera. And they will be talking to the students as this is the reality. This is how it works. Um, you know, lots of industry visits. Um, and again, with sponsorships, we've got, you know, there's, we're working currently with Lions Creed.

Nik: Um, and they're, they offer coaching, uh, as part of that program and they get to come in and talk to the students. So there's lots of opportunities there. And. I think from, from teacher's perspective, so the people that most of the people that teaching eSports have a passion for it, um, and in terms of kind of like sponsorship and mentorship, those students who show the, um, that passion and that commitment, you know, there are.

Nik: Lots of opportunities for them to develop their skill sets, develop, uh, their networking through, um, looking ahead to employment. For example, for the student championships, there's opportunities for students who aren't in the teams to shout cast and commentate on the games to live stream. Um, you know, through the networks of the teachers on LinkedIn, the students are communicating with.

Nik: industry experts and organizations and getting work experience. You know, we've got had students who have worked at, um, you know, all sorts of organizations. Um, you know, some of them, the group of four that we're working at Guild Esports, for example, um, as consultants and kind of giving that viewpoint from a 16, 17 year old, which, you know, for, for a lot of the professionals working in Esports, like myself, you know, we are.

Nik: the age that we are, um, you know, in the way that the youngsters use social media, um, is almost a foreign language to a lot of us. We can try, but it's not quite the same. Um, you know, I've had WhatsApp conversations with former students and I just don't know what they're actually talking about because it's just letters put together.

Nik: But from it, from an organization's point of view, those insights and how to deliver. That social media to reach that target audience is, is, is really useful. So they're getting great experience. Um, We have, for example, the enterprise and education, uh, enterprise and entrepreneurship unit where they pitch their own idea.

Nik: We had four students who had set up their own e sports organization, and you can see on the shirt behind me, uh, just this one here, um, they pitched their idea or they, we were already aware that they were doing it, you know, but when they pitched it, I was so impressed with. That level of understanding of the business that they had set up.

Nik: Um, they were assessed for the presentation, but then I called them back to speak to them about sponsorship. Um, you know, you can see on the, on the, on the sleeve on the shirt in the background is my, uh, my company and eSports and I sponsor controlled eSports, you know, and have done for over a year now. Um, I also sponsor a team in Chicago.

Nik: Um, who, which is. led by a 15 year old lad, um, he approached me on LinkedIn because he'd been to the trade association, uh, eSports trade associations conference in, in, in Chicago and spoke to one of my colleagues there and they said, Oh, you should speak to Nick, you know, and sort of like. Six months later, um, you know, I've, I've agreed a sponsorship deal with them because, you know, for me, grassroots eSports is really important.

Nik: Um, you know, the opportunities are limited because of finances and eSports as an industry is still working out how to be the sustainable industry that it should be and will be because it's grown so quickly. Um, you know, at times things are a little bit messy. So while the. Big organizations, the professional organizations are all battling it out for, for sponsorship and finance, you know, makes it slightly harder for the, for the, for grassroots.

Nik: Um, you know, I also sponsor the college, uh, QMC college teams. So, you know, just put some money into, into buying the jerseys for them to, to reduce the amount that they have to buy to spend their jerseys. And, you know, and I think that's just, that's really important. It's something that, um, you know, it's a philanthropic.

Nik: Elements to my business, I suppose, you know, and I'm quite keen to keep that going and brand it, but instead of just bankrolling them and saying, right, here's 10, 000 because I haven't got 10, 000 instead of saying here's 10, 000 and then they get an unrealistic viewpoint of business and the industry and they just think money is going to fall in their hands and they're gonna, um, not necessarily the motivation drops, um, because they know that they've got that massive pot of money that they can just spend and wither away.

Nik: That's really important not to do that. So, you know, the sponsorship that I do is based on them showing me what, um, their finances look like. Um, you know, and, and again, I remember, uh, one of the pitches involved the fact that like running costs and it was like eight pounds every month for the verified Twitter.

Nik: Tick, you know, and it's a business person. You're like, Oh, I say pounds, you know, it's like it's nothing, but it's an important part for them because they're putting their own money in. So, you know, that's where you look at it and say, Okay, I'm prepared to sponsor you with this amount of money, which will help you for the next year.

Nik: But you've got to go and make it work. You know, I can cover you for a bit, but I'm not going to bankroll it so that you don't do anything, you know, you don't have to worry about that. So progress your business, make it work. And then I act as a mentor to them, um, you know, in terms of ideas and how they might generate people or approach other sponsors, et cetera, et cetera.

Amelia: Um, yeah, we're sort of running out of time here, Nick, but I, I want to sort of hone in on the industry a little bit more before we finish. Um, and I'm hoping you can tell us very briefly, under a minute, um, something you're really excited about in the esports industry in the near future that we should look out 

Nik: for.

Nik: Amelia, that's a throw, throw in trick question at the last minute. Um, okay, so. One of my kind of one of my one of my things about eSports is the ecosystem that it operates within whereby you have got, um, organizations like the teams. So you've got all of these competitive teams. Then you have all of these.

Nik: national bodies, governing bodies, you know, like, um, British Esports Federation, the Global Esports Federation, etc. Um, and they're almost battling against each other because the, the Esports titles themselves are the big games like League of Legends and, um, Overwatch. They are run by the games publishers.

Nik: So the games publishers are making lots of money through selling the, or through the games, but also through eSports. Um, so the structure isn't quite right. Because why would they listen to a governing body? Because they're already making their money. But in terms of the sustainability of the industry, we need to create a structure that is fair, sustainable.

Nik: Um, you know, it doesn't just rely on, on profit from, from games publishers. Um, and things like watching, uh, watching, paying to watch e sports, you know, subscriptions to e sports. If you look at the premier league, you know, that generates 9 billion pounds a year. Most of that comes from broadcast rights, whereas eSports, you watch free, it's nearly all available, not all, but most of it is available free.

Nik: So, those sorts of revenue streams, I think, need to come in to help to generate more money and to improve the sustainability. And I know these awarding bodies are talking to the publishers, so... You know, that's something that I'm keeping an eye out for, and I'm hoping that we'll see some movement on that in the next few years.

Amelia: Yeah, I was, I was hoping to talk a bit more about, um, broadcasting, streaming, the impact on the industry. So that will have to wait for next time. Um, thanks for highlighting it. We'll look out for exciting developments there. Um, Nick, thank you very much for sharing your time and your wisdom with us. It's been a pleasure.

Amelia: Pleasure is all ours. Um, I'm sure the CareerCon audience will be keen to connect with you and follow your work. So if you would point out where we can find you on your socials, that would be 

Nik: amazing. Yep, sure. Um, so LinkedIn, you'll find me, um, just as Nick Turner, which is N I K. Um, you should find me okay on that.

Nik: For Twitter and Instagram. Um, I'm es sporty shorty. Now you can't see 'cause I'm sat down, but I'm very small. Um, my website is www.ntesports.uk. Um, and you'll find all my handles on there plus the resources, um, and, and what we do as a company. Um, and my email address will be on there as well. So please do get in touch.

Nik: Uh, I'm always happy to help and share ideas and, and how people develop stuff. So, um, yeah, don't, don't be. Hesitant, just, just drop me a message and I'll get back to 

Amelia: you. Esporty shorty. I love it. That's amazing. Um, all those links, uh, can be found on the Hundo website. Uh, don't forget to follow Hundo on socials and sign up for our newsletter at hundo.

Amelia: xyz to hear what's coming up next in our monthly career con series. Uh, so Nick, thank you so much. And also of course, to our audience, thank you so much for listening, uh, and goodbye.